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Harmon Halftime: Dave Rose's challenge boils down to a simple BYU hurdle

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  • FuzzyLogic VACAVILLE, CA
    March 21, 2017 1:31 a.m.

    Jordan Chatman transferring had nothing to do with Coach Rose. The exceptionally bright Chatman was accepted to BYU's law school, which prohibits its students from participating in sports. Thus he transferred somewhere where he could go to law school and play basketball.

  • Marked it Down Park City, UT
    March 19, 2017 10:47 a.m.

    Michael Lloyd Jr.

    "Rose could have kept Chatman. He elected not to because he thought he had a better idea."

    Chatman chose to leave because he wanted to attend Law School, and BYU's Law School does not allow students to participate in inter-collegiate athletics.

  • talkinsports Gilbert, AZ
    March 18, 2017 4:37 p.m.

    Michael Lloyd Jr.

    re: Lone*Star: "Did you see the three St. Mary's game? Any college coach would concur that coaching was a huge factor in those games."

    NOPE.

    What any college coach would concur is that having experienced players was a huge factor in those games, especially with the style of ball Saint Mary's plays.

    Before this season, Dave Rose was 5-6 versus Randy Bennett.

    This season, Saint Mary's was #84 in experience and BYU was #338.

  • Lone*Star Austin, TX
    March 18, 2017 4:24 p.m.

    Michael Lloyd Jr.

    "There is a huge problem when you are counting on LJ Rose as one of your "best" players."

    L.J. Rose was recruited to be the stabilizing, Senior, point guard, that Dave Rose knew that the Cougars lacked heading into this season.

    It's interesting that fans whine about Emery and Haws throwing up wild shots, even though they made many of those shots and were 2nd and 3rd on the team in scoring, yet you whine about L.J. Rose's lack of production, because he only lead the team in assists.

  • Rockwell Baltimore, MD
    March 18, 2017 3:02 p.m.

    idablu

    "If experience was such a major factor, why didn't we see a steady improvement as the team progressed."

    Injuries.

    BYU lost Davis early; didn't have Bryant until January; lost L.J.Rose in early February; and lost Bryant, again, for the NIT.

    "You can't deny the team didn't look any better against UTA than they did against UVU--2 opposite ends of the season."

    Apples to Oranges comparison.

    UT Arlington finished #44 in RPI, won the Sun Belt regular season championship, and was #13 in experience. They also beat Saint Mary's 65-51 in Moraga.

    UVU finished #204 in RPI and simply caught fire from 3PT for a game, hitting 18 of 37 (48.6%), well above their 36.9% for the season.

    The Mustangs were a very good, very experienced team that should have been playing in the NCAA tournament instead of being a #6 seed in the NIT.

    BYU was down THREE starters - Davis, L.J. Rose and Bryant - when they played UTA, plus Haws and Childs were both sick. The game was basically 2 on 5, with Mika and Emery doing their best to try to keep BYU in the game.

    BYU did show that they could play great defense at times, see Gonzaga, they were simply very inconsistent.

  • Michael Lloyd Jr. Spanish Fork, UT
    March 18, 2017 2:42 p.m.

    History says you are wrong and teams can overcome huge odds.

    Lone*Star - Austin, TX

    "Whether the naysayers want to admit it or not, inexperience and injuries were the primary reasons why BYU wasn't more successful this season."

    One response: US beats Soviet Union (most experienced and most healthy team on planet) and wins gold at Lake Placid. Coaching and chemistry lead the way over "inexperience".

    Are you related to someone on the coaching staff? Seriously. Did you see the three St. Mary's game? Any college coach would concur that coaching was a huge factor in those games. There is so much more to the story than TJ Haws 3 pt. shooting percentage. If you don't think the coaching staffs at Duke, Gonzaga, North Carolina, St. Marys, Villanova, etc. make a big difference then you don't understand college basketball. If noone can over come youth and inexperience why are they paid such huge salaries? Even Dave Rose would admit there are some things he would have done quite a bit differently.

    Why huge salaries for coaches if unable to overcome?

    There is a huge problem when you are counting on LJ Rose as one of your "best" players. You are big on stats so check out his.

  • idablu Idaho Falls, ID
    March 18, 2017 10:54 a.m.

    @Lone Star and MLJ

    I have to side with MLJ one this one. If experience was such a major factor, why didn't we see a steady improvement as the team progressed. You can't deny the team didn't look any better against UTA than they did against UVU--2 opposite ends of the season. Defense and ball security was no better at the end of the season than at the beginning of the season. So, when is this "experience" supposed to kick in.
    I freely admit experience is a factor, but a coaching philosophy that lacks defensive emphasis and player accountability is a bigger problem. That MUST change if this team wants to contend for the WCC championship.

  • Lone*Star Austin, TX
    March 18, 2017 8:29 a.m.

    Michael Lloyd Jr.

    "I think many "naysayers" are just making a point that too many excuses are coming out of the program...and that in some of the matchups, i.e. St. Marys, coaches could do a better job. You are correct that injuries are a factor. They were a factor for UT Arlington in Provo when they had to go without one of their best players...but they adjusted. Injuries and inexperience hurt but great coaching can often overcome obstacles like UVU and UT Arlington."

    UT Arlington was missing ONE of its best players.
    BYU was missing THREE of its best players.

    UT Arlington is #13 in experience.
    BYU is #338 in experience.

    Coaching can't teach experience, anymore than having great professors can cram four years of college into a single year.

    Fans are ragging on Haws for taking wild shots, yet Haws shot BETTER from 3PT as a Freshman, than Jimmer did as a Senior.

    Whether the naysayers want to admit it or not, inexperience and injuries were the primary reasons why BYU wasn't more successful this season.

  • Howard S. Taylorsville, UT
    March 17, 2017 6:27 p.m.

    Dick won't address the real problem with BYU basketball.

    Of course the obvious problem is defense.

    But the real problem is discipline.

    Defense is the product of discipline. The shooters that flock to BYU aspiring to be the next Jimmer are woefully lacking in discipline.

    Rose doesn't need new players... he needs to instill discipline in the players he's got.

    Until BYU basketball embraces discipline, the disappointing seasons will continue.

  • Michael Lloyd Jr. Spanish Fork, UT
    March 17, 2017 1:27 p.m.

    News alert: UT Arlington adjusts in Provo despite injury to star player.

    Lone*Star - Austin, TX

    "Once again the naysayers descend with their clueless claims that inexperience and injuries had absolutely nothing to do with BYU's inconsistencies this season."

    That is a little harsh. I think the "naysayers" make some pretty good points. I don't think they are all "clueless". You obviously have a strong opinion. You seem to have a very, very high opinion of the BYU coaching staff. I don't think you're clueless but you swing just as fast and hard in your direction as they do in theirs.

    I think many "naysayers" are just making a point that too many excuses are coming out of the program...and that in some of the matchups, i.e. St. Marys, coaches could do a better job. You are correct that injuries are a factor. They were a factor for UT Arlington in Provo when they had to go without one of their best players...but they adjusted. Injuries and inexperience hurt but great coaching can often overcome obstacles like UVU and UT Arlington. A little more accountability from the coaches would help "Naysayers" sleep a little better and be more positive about the future.

  • Central Texan Buda, TX
    March 17, 2017 10:23 a.m.

    How often this season did we get teams coming up against BYU and seemed to be having their best offensive games, like with UT Arlington with their highest scoring first half, UVU with over a 100-point game, opposing players having career highs in scoring, etc.

    There ought to be a statistic that evaluates a team by how often its opponents have their best offensive stats, compared to how often an opponent is held below their averages.

  • tyroneweaver Burley, ID
    March 17, 2017 5:33 a.m.

    I hear this word experience being thrown around like cotton candy.
    Is that just a rumor that 3 of the players have been playing together since they were knee high to a grasshopper.

  • Gandalph Sandy, UT
    March 16, 2017 11:47 p.m.

    MLJ

    BYU has a Law School that doesn't allow students to participate in intercollegiate sports; get your facts straight.

  • Lone*Star Austin, TX
    March 16, 2017 11:30 p.m.

    Once again the naysayers descend with their clueless claims that inexperience and injuries had absolutely nothing to do with BYU's inconsistencies this season.

    Rose is supposed to be some sort of miracle worker who can simply wave his magic wand and make one of the least experienced teams in the country, a team riddled with significant injuries to key players, play like a veteran, well-oiled machine.

  • CoHawk Littleton, CO
    March 16, 2017 10:53 p.m.

    I agree with a number of comments on this article. But, lets clear up one thing. Jordan Chatman is getting his MBA at BC ..... not his law degree. He should have been given more than the 10 min/gm last year. He is another in a long line of BYU players who aren't really given a chance and/or a green light to play offense on the BYU bench. Bartley was a good defensive force and obviously Issac Nelson would have really helped this year. The one missing cog in this machine is a point guard. Calvert was the answer IMO. We will get to see him next year. Haws is not it. He should be playing behind Emery as a 2. Beo maybe could do it, but we will never know because he wasn't brought along this year with any real playing time at the pt. Rose doesn't seem capable of turning this ship around. He is in awe of Emery and Haws and they aren't held accountable for anything. I don't care if Harmon thinks that was because there was no one on the bench ..... we were losing games anyway. Put them on the bench for 3 minutes everytime they do something stupid. Same rules for everyone!

  • Well.... Phoenix, AZ
    March 16, 2017 10:44 p.m.

    Experienced older players would be great, as well as better shooting and shot selection, and taking care of the ball's gotta be mentioned, too. But most of all, actually playing defense would have solved several of the worst losses. 114 points to UVU, for Pete's sake, to name only the worst example? Guard somebody, guys.

  • Michael Lloyd Jr. Spanish Fork, UT
    March 16, 2017 8:05 p.m.

    Gone for good - Burley, ID

    BYU has a law school. Get your facts straight. There would have to be good communication between Rose, the law school and Chatman. I don't think you know the whole story.

  • ABQ_BYU_Fan Albuquerque, NM
    March 16, 2017 7:42 p.m.

    Jordan Chapman obviously wanted to stay at BYU (and Rose wanted him too) because he applied to BYU's Law School. For some crazy reaon, BYU's Law School doesn't let their students play NCAA sports. So Jordan could NOT stay at BYU. Everyone was disappointed. We really could have used him this year.

  • Gruncle Ralph Salt Lake City, UT
    March 16, 2017 7:24 p.m.

    A lot of excuse making going on with regards to low continuity and lack of experience. Problem is, Coach's inconsistent substitution patterns and tendency to write young players off too quickly when they don't come in scoring 20 pts a game right out of the gate and leave them rotting on the end of his bench forgotten for weeks or longer has put him in this position.

    We had players who could've provided that experience we lacked and given us quality depth off the bench or in the starting lineup. Some of these guys are having success too in their new homes. Isaac Neilson is averaging nearly a double double at UVU and is the WAC DPOY. Frank Bartley IV is scoring 15 a game for ULL and Chatman is averaging 8 a game and set an ACC record for 3's in a game recently. Also Cory Calvert and Jake Toolson were experienced role players who could've made a difference.

    These guys felt that they had no future at BYU (Chatman's was an issue with BYU Law School but who knows how that might've played out if he was getting major minutes on the team) to the degree that they decided the grass looked greener over the fence.

    You reap what you sow.

  • Gone for good Burley, ID
    March 16, 2017 5:32 p.m.

    Why does every one keep thinking that there was some way BYU was going to keep Jordan Chapman. It was never going to happen and it had nothing to do with Dave Rose. It was his decision regarding law school. He made a wise decision for his future. Everyone needs to get their facts straight.

  • ed in atl Duluth, GA
    March 16, 2017 5:13 p.m.

    I like what Spencer Linton said today - it is maturity!!

  • idablu Idaho Falls, ID
    March 16, 2017 4:39 p.m.

    Yes and No.
    Yes, Rose needs to recruit from the JC ranks that can play defense to help hold the current guards accountable.

    But it is much more than that. Rose desperately needs an experienced point guard. Haws is NOT it and never will be. He needs a paradigm shift in coaching philosophy with an emphasis on defense and movement & spacing on offense. This starts with replacing his coaching staff with proven experience in these areas.

    Harmen is right that it boils down to recruiting--but it needs to be recruitment of point guards, as well as recruitment of coaching personnel.

  • kfbob SALT LAKE CITY, UT
    March 16, 2017 4:28 p.m.

    Dick you are right, BYU has "shooters". They just need more "makers".

    The culture at BYU is the opposite to 99.9% of the best programs in the Nation. The culture at BYU is: If you want to play you have to be able to shoot the 3 ball.

    Every other serious P5 and midmajor team in American have a different litmus test for players especially freshmen to get on the court:

    You have to be able to defend. PERIOD. Ask any coach of a D1 program the minimum qualifications for a player to get in the game... Same answer: Defense. Until that changes at BYU we will continue to get guys that are better than average shooters but don't have enough defensive skill and athletic ability to play at Weber State.

    Look at the Jimmer senior year: That was their best defensive team in years:

    Abouo - great perimeter defender, rebounder
    Emery- Top perimeter defender and steals leader
    Hartsock-Good shot blocker , rebounder and defender
    Brandon Davies: good low post defender.
    Kyle Collinsworth: very good freshman defender.

  • Michael Lloyd Jr. Spanish Fork, UT
    March 16, 2017 4:17 p.m.

    AVAILABLE SCHOLARSHIPS?

    Interesting piece Dick. However, don't you need available scholarships to recruit? Maybe you could write a piece on possible trades...like MLB or NFL. Something like the Houston Texans unloading Oswelier to the Browns and giving up a valuable draft pick because Cleveland had cap room to absorb his salary.

    BYU could trade Worthington, Beo and a player to be named later for ....oh...I don't know....Lonzo Ball's first born.

    With an eye on making another move at quarterback, Cleveland acquired veteran Brock Oswelier and a 2018 second-round pick on Thursday in a stunning trade with the Houston Texans, who were looking for a partner to help them get rid of the QB’s $16m guaranteed contract.

  • Michael Lloyd Jr. Spanish Fork, UT
    March 16, 2017 3:52 p.m.

    JORDAN CHATMAN

    Rose could have kept Chatman. He elected not to because he thought he had a better idea.

  • burningblue Provo, UT
    March 16, 2017 2:15 p.m.

    Yes, It's a problem with recruiting. And keeping players with experience. Jordan Chatman and Jake Toolson would have gone a long ways towards stabilizing this team this season.

  • Esquire Springville, UT
    March 16, 2017 2:12 p.m.

    More than recruiting. It's coaching. The kids need focus, discipline, and play on both ends of the court. Their high school press clipping mean nothing now. Let's see if Rose can rise to the challenge. Does he have the energy for it?