Fools names like fools faces always appear in public places!
Here are a few observations:1. When someone has left an organization and
wants to use someone else's money and power to bring down or embarrass said
organization, you might want to wonder about the motive.2. Those who want
the most tolerance for themselves seem to have the least tolerance for
others.3. Watch what people do rather than what they say.4. What
would be the benefit of the church to bribe someone to get more visas? More
missionaries= more converts= more buildings, instructional materials, temples,
maintenance to spend money on, etc. (Not sure the equation ends in a positive
cash flow for the Church.)5. How is the Church so persuasive that
Senators, Congressmen, and other government officials have looked the other way
while they intimidate and bribe their way to more visas?6. What should
the Church say about this? I wouldn't be responding until there is
something to respond to, especially if a legal action might be pending. Right
now we just have a lot of speculation. No point in saying anything until an
action rather than just an accusation is present.
"We're not in the business of attacking religions," Yeah - riiiggghhht.
I served my mission in India. Halfway through my mission, my visa expired and I
was sent to the Philippines, where I waited 8 months to receive a new visa and
return to India. Receiving the missionary visa to India is a difficult,
painstaking process, but the church follows properly. Otherwise, it would not
have taken almost a year to get my visa. The accusations are inaccurate. Period.
Oh please!Really! Sorry, I've seen firsthand how the church handles
working with and getting missionaries into countries. They really focus on
following laws and working on building relationships, not buying visas!
"The Emporer has no clothes!"
No they don't scep. What is the scep desired result, members of religion
can not be allowed to believe anything scep deems unacceptable.
The bottom line issue is: the Mormon church and corporate churches are multi
billion dollar ldustries operating under a religious umbrella of commerce,
politics that goes way beyond church business. It affects and impacts people
and communities both church and non church members. Their activities invade all
public and private lives. Therefore, all church business and activities should
be transparent and disclosed open and honestly to the public.
This request is, in other words, religion is fine as long as it passes my litmus
test. When visas are restricted on religious grounds as they are in many
countries, individuals or our government have the right to challenge that
Actually skep there is no legal requirement for legal corporations to provide
annual reports and audits. "The Mormon church and all other
churches should be investigated from time to time to provide transparency and
disclosure of their compliance to civil and financial acceptable conduct."
Interesting concept skep, the who ever gets to investigate a person from time to
time to determine their compliance to civil and financial acceptable conduct.
Does that mean we get to, from time to time, investigate skep to see if his
civil and financial dealings are acceptable conduct?Of course
realize a company not traded on exchanges is only required to report to their
owners or shareholders and no one else. They like the church are not beholden
to the general public, or government approval.
@james d morrison,Thank you for expanding and clarify my comment.
It makes it even more obvious why the church should provide transparency and
share church information with members and the public. They have the audits, what
is it that they do not want known. And why shouldn't it be known. If as
the church claims, they are doing Lord's s work, then isn't god open
skeptic - the church does have an audit every year but only publicly held
corporations have to publicize their annual reports and audits.
The Mormon church and all other churches should be investigated from time to
time to provide transparency and disclosure of their compliance to civil and
financial acceptable conduct. These churches are legal corporation and should
comply with legal corporation requirements to provide annual reports and audits.
Sorry I can't resist another comment.If there is a supposed
"wall of separation" between the government and religious institutions,
that the liberals hold so dear, then what the church does in India is of no
interest to the U.S. government and is none of the U.S. governments business.
Per the 1st Amendment.
They are desperately trying to find anything they can to accuse the church, and
even when there is nothing to the accusation (and there never is) the news
stories about it will make them think they had some kind of success. Their
motives are clear no matter how much they deny them.
LOL. They want an investigation into the church now? Why under this
administration? They must realize that this will accomplish absolutely nothing.
If they actually wanted an investigation I would think they'd wait for an
administration that might actually respond, perhaps? So what's their real
goal? Perhaps getting ordinary members like us riled up?
If it's no big del why doesn't the Church respond ?
Why is it that some religions are accused and others are left alone? The LDS
Church has suffered a lot of persecution in the past and it seems that someone
is trying to open that door again.
This is just another example of the old and true saying, "People can leave
the Church, but they can't leave it alone."These groups
haven't even alleged that anything unusual is going on, but they'd
like to make normal look odd. Nice try.
It's an Occam's Razor scenario. LDS missionaries ARE doing the work of
the Lord or they are NOT doing the work of the Lord. If they are NOT doing the
work of the Lord then it is insignificant and not important and the protests are
a waste of time, money and energy about a non issue. If they ARE doing the work
of the Lord then these antagonists are fighting against the Lord himself. It is
clear which is true and who is directing their antagonism isn't it?
I don't like that these guys are getting press for this. It's a total
joke. They hate the Church... that's their problem yet they keep trying to
being the drama.
The church members have gone through a lot of persecutions when Van Buren was
president. I hope this isn't the beginning of a repeat!
So.... how much is this going to cost? Are we really willing to pay the cost
or spend the time on this?Blows my mind that someone thought of this
as something we "ought" to get to the bottom of. These folks ought to
be embarrassed about what they choose to spend the money and time doing.
Perhaps I am an imbecile. After reading the letter, I cannot see how anyone
could take this seriously. Did you read the parts of the Logan Act
and Foreign Corrupt Practices Act they claim have been broken? How is the LDS
Church undermining the United States' interests in India? What business is
the LDS Church attempting to procure in India through missionary visas? This really has NOTHING to do with transparency. Read the letter if
you've not already. It truly is a joke.
Oh boy, another group wanting to go after the church. Nothing new here. Haters
will hate, no matter what it costs them!
"We're not in the business of attacking religions," Wait...hahahahahah.
The Indian Ambassador offered 200 visas to LDS Missionaries? And they care?
Why? The fourth question that I have is; How does this affect national
security when LDS youth and adults get visas to go on missions?Decker and Karger assert that this is about "transparency". Why is it
their business? How does it affect them? Do these visas harm them in any
way?The Justice Department ought to tell them to take a flying leap.
The people who filed this complaint with the Department of State and with the
Justice Department will get no response from either one. If any investigation
is really necessary (and it appears it is not) then the proper agency to seek
relief from is the IRS, which has the power to deny the church its tax
exemption. The Department of State will not refuse to issue visas so long as
the technical requirements have been met. The Department of Justice never
undertakes an investigation sought by private parties, but only advises the
executive departments of the federal government.
Axe to grind,,,bee in their bonnet,,,waste of tax dollars!!!
@GaryO " What is your problem with an investigation?"
Nothing; if there were anything more to it that harassmentIndeed why not
investigate the critics? "tolerant" people have a long history of
No American should welcome or invite an investigation if there is no evidence
that something wrong is going on here. We should care more about how tax
dollars are spent and there are significant issues that need attention of those
dollars. If the motivation were different, I could comment differently, but in
this case, the motivation is very clear and spoken by these two often. For that
reason, it should be NOT welcomed or invited. They intend to harass at every
opportunity, at others' expense. They have made that clear often.
I'm sure the Church would cooperate with any Constitutional investigation.
But the question here is whether or not this constitutes harassment, targeting,
bullying, or any other type of unlawful or unwarranted attack. If anyone
believes there is a sincere effort to uncover some kind of illegal activity of
Church leaders, let evidence be shown before the request for an investigation.
These two even admit that they don't know of anything, they just suspect
(and we all know they would like to find) something wrong in what Church leaders
are doing. Is there any greater evidence of something wrong here than,
let's say, any other Visa getting activities by anyone looking for
expediency?To several who have commented. Welcoming an
investigation is far different than inviting one. There is no reason to spend
tax payer dollars on an investigation that comes about because of a hope that
something is wrong and can be uncovered and exposed.
Nothing to say here I'm just laughing this is so rich. The only unfortunate
thing is that harassing a church like this is socially acceptable because it is
a Christian church
Transparency is good. The truth shall set you free.The Church
should welcome any investigation. If we have done nothing wrong, then we have
nothing to hide - right?
"I thought it was important for us to put our name to a letter that would
look a little bit more closely at what the LDS Church was doing," Decker
said. "We're not in the business of attacking religions," he said.
"There are a lot of people who would say that this is an attack on the
church. It's not on attack on people's faith. It's wanting to
make sure we're getting to the bottom and making sure money's being
spent appropriately and legally in this country."Nothing like
left wing organizations thinking they have a say in how other people spend their
money...as if they have a say in the matter. They say they
aren't attacking the religion...but they are gaslighting.
Pathetic, just pathetic. But the same haters, though few, still got to show
their true colors.
Karger is no longer a member of the Church. That speaks volumes. Asking the
Trump administration to investigate, but yet not having anything against the
Church? Really? This is no more than a couple of people who are angry with the
Church trying to find some way to discredit the Church. It simply isn't
going to happen.
These double standards truly amaze me. If these entities that are going after
the LDS church for “transparency “were subject to an audit, the ACLU
would be flipping out to kingdom come about it being a hate crime. But since it
is directed at a Christian denomination, then it is an appropriate exercise in
demanding justification to prove that their organization is not perpetuating
discrimination. With all these double, triple and quaternary sets of standards,
how the heck is little ol’ me supposed to keep up with who wants what? I
double—dog dare them to be “transparent” first.
Bountiful Guy,"This reminds me of Sonia Johnson."Not to mention Stephen Douglas.
Nothing to see here, The church always operated in the gray. Inside deals and
influence are part of the culture. Its just the way it is, it may be unethical
but it's legal. However, I see the need for transparency because of the
legitimate concerns that are at hand.
Let's see . . . Its stated goal is "to increase the
visibility of and respect for nontheistic viewpoints in the United States, and
to protect and strengthen the secular character of our government as the best
guarantee of freedom for all."In the law we would say
"assumes facts not in evidence." I think a pluralistic viewpoint is the
best guarantee of freedom. There is no evidence that a nonthesitic viewpoint
does anything put reduce us to the lowest common denominator where there are no
governing principles and everything is arbitrary. Also the fact that
missionaries spend a lot of time doing public service projects seems to have
Hey Simplicity -"Another example of the left/liberals trying to
silence, bully, intimidate, and shame any that oppose them. "Ha!
That's hilarious! What is your problem with an investigation?If
the LDS Church is innocent of any wrongdoing, then the LDS Church will be found
innocent of any wrongdoing. Won't it?You should welcome that
investigation . . . UNLESS you think the LDS Church IS in fact guilty of
wrongdoing.Is that it? Is that why the outraged Mormons on this
board are so outraged?Why the outrage? Why would Mormons just assume
that their Church is indeed GUILTY of wrongdoing?. . . Anybody??
Tsk tsk! Another pathetic attempt to discredit a religion. Look, Fred. I know
you disagree with our views and what not, but how long are you going to wage
this war? Surely you have better things to do then make up a bunch of claims
against the church.
@Cambodia Girl was onto something.... truer words were never spoken. "We
can never be injured
by any mortals, except ourselves.” (In
Conference Report, Apr. 1909)
Laura Billingtonhow many Americans died in Benghazi?compare
that to the death toll from LDS missionaries in India.Want to try
again drawing the comparison?
This reminds me of Sonia Johnson. Didn't she bring down and destroy the
Church in 1979? Now we have two more very sad people.I hope that
'abuse of process' charges can be leveled against these guys for the
obvious harassment against a single target. But in time, they will fade away
from relevance, just like Sonia did. At 80 years old, she's still at it
and making no noticeable noise.
Another example of the left/liberals trying to silence, bully, intimidate, and
shame any that oppose them. Know this liberals, you will invariably
be opposed by constitutionalists, libertarians, conservatives, lovers of freedom
and God fearing people.
This sounds like a waste of taxpayer money to selfishly nurse a personal
vendetta against a religion or it's people. If we all participated in this,
we could bankrupt our country with legal fees and bog up an already busy court
system. What they seem to need is a therapist to help them sever their ties with
@maggie bacherIts more than a publicity stunt - its a fund raiser.
Acts 5: 38-39 - "And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let
them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought:
But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to
fight against God."I really enjoy these types of antics that
individuals do in efforts to bring down the Church. Paul's words are just
such an indication of who these individuals really are and their motives. While
it's never too late for one to mend his or her ways, if that mend is not
done...these individuals will have a lot of explaining to do to about why, under
the guise of seeking "transparency," they actively fought against God
and His kingdom. These individuals and all others would be wise to
"refrain...and let [the Church] alone." But, I have yet to see any of
This is nothing more than another group with an agenda. They want to shut down
When Larry and Fred tell us that this is not an attack on religion or the LDS
Church, you can be assured that is not altogether true. Lying about your
motivations is pretty easy to detect, your not fooling anyone. It's pretty
interesting to watch people who are motivated by hate.
Getting a visa to stay temporarily in another country is not a special
privilege. They are granted routinely for tourists, for college students, and
for employees of businesses that have operations in that country. Asking the
government of that country to speed up the processing of visas for your people
is not unusual. Asking it through official channels, such as an elected member
of Congress talking with the ambassador, is the proper way to make such a
request. It is the opposite of offering bribes to the lower level officials who
actually do the visa processing. The people making this complaint are trying to
harass and waste the time of the Trump Administration as well as the LDS Church.
The Standard of Truth has been erected; no unhallowed hand can stop the work
from progressing; persecutions may rage, mobs may combine, armies may assemble,
calumny may defame, but the truth of God will go forth boldly, nobly, and
independent, till it has penetrated every continent, visited every clime, swept
every country, and sounded in every ear, till the purposes of God shall be
accomplished, and the Great Jehovah shall say the work is done.
It will be interesting to see who takes an interest in this given the
anti-Mormon views of dominionists like Mike Pence and so many of his favored
staff and appointees. Make no mistake about it, if he can find a way to
legitimately go after the church without getting his hands dirty i.e. blame it
on the gays - he will do so. As Pence moves into a position of more influence,
pay attention to how the influence of LDS staffers and appointees diminishes.
I had a good chuckle when reading this one.
this sounds more like a publicity stunt to promote themselves and their
enterprise than actual allegations. thanks for wasting my tax dollars while
you seek "more transparency" for my church donations, guys.
I'm wondering why these commenters were..strangely..silent when Jason
Chaffetz & Co. were wasting mega-millions of taxpayer dollars on the
Benghazi hearings. I don't remember any of them protesting the Birther
nonsense. Read some real news about the After School Satan
Club--not the Breitbart nonsense, but the stuff in legitimate newspapers. The
IRS tax exempt status certificate was issued in ten days. It was an
uncomplicated application. The (nonreligious) private school whose board I
served on received approval in the same time from the same office.
Remember folks, the left absolutely wants to destroy your freedom to worship.
They, or at least a large portion of them, want to persecute, jail, fine, or do
even worse to any Christian they can. Note how no leftists ever stand up to
these Atheist bullies; no leftist ever says that this is too far.Karster is a leftist, his actions are supported by the left and the Democrat
party, and he is a true anti-Mormon, of the "Burn them all!" brigade
from the 1800's, if he could.
"There are a lot of people who would say that this is an attack on the
church.".And they would be right.I'm a huge
proponent of the separation of church and state, but this looks like a fishing
expedition, and over visas?
As both an atheist and gay rights activist let me cleary state, these two men
and thier "organizations" do not represent me.
Ridiculous. Opponents of the church are grasping at straws. This will go
I feel sorry for these guys who are wasting so much time and money with hateful
vendettas. Elder Heber J. Grant said: “Our enemies have never done
anything that has injured this work of God, and they never will. I look around,
I read, I reflect, and I ask the question, Where are the men of influence, of
power and prestige, who have worked against the Latter-day Saints? Where is the
reputation, for honor and courage, of the governors of Missouri and Illinois,
the judges, and all others who have come here to Utah on special missions
against the Latter-day Saints? Where are there people to do them honor? They can
not be found.
Where are the men who have assailed this work? Where is
their influence? They have faded away like dew before the sun. We need have no
fears, we Latter-day Saints. God will continue to sustain this work; He will
sustain the right. If we are loyal, if we are true, if we are worthy of this
Gospel, of which God has given us a testimony, there is no danger that the world
can ever injure us. We can never be injured
by any mortals, except
ourselves.” (In Conference Report, Apr. 1909)
The story is not even newsworthy. However it is fun to read about those who
suppress other's views in their own way. As the saying goes, "those
who don't believe in God should die once."
It would seem that the church's official name "The Corporation of the
President of the Church of Latter Day Saints" is more than appropriate and a
Five months after release of the videos, the best effort that anti-Mormons can
make is this implausible charge? Deliver a letter insinuating malfeasance and
demanding an investigation? After watching videos of Mormon meetings and more
meetings, the accusers are now suffering from stupor of thought. They deserve
Just think of the good that could be accomplished if this amount of effort to
defame or embarrass the LDS Church was put into something that actually mattered
and that helped the poor and needy. As has been said before about
Karger and his kind:"the Standard of Truth has been erected; no
unhallowed hand can stop the work from progressing..." Joseph Smith
These guys must not have very much to do in their lives, if they are on a
fishing expedition for something like this.
Why is it that those that contribute to the church don't feel to need to
know where the Lord's money is going. Transparency? I don't think so.
Harrasssment is the more likely reason.
Fred Karger is involved with it. This tells me all I need to know.
I would like Trump to investigate why the IRS fast-tracked tax-exempt status for
an "After School Satan Club" in Tacoma, Washington. This is cultural
marxism folks. The LDS religion is not oppressing people. In fact let me say
that we should be investigating the IRS oppression of religion.
Hahaha! This is the best one yet! How much mud are these guys going to throw
against the wall before they realize nothing is sticking?